Curse

Lanier · Feb 05, 2010, 04:18 AM // 04:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

As someone already mentioned, buffing Fast Casting to also reduce recharge time, which would not only shorten the recharge on Mesmer skills, but also those of your secondary, could open interesting possibilities.

I feel as though that would make fast casting a little too powerful. In my opinion, all that is needed is for more skills to be moved to the fast casting attribute line.

Bob Slydell · Feb 05, 2010, 06:51 AM // 06:51

How the hell was IoP Nerfed?

Fast Casting and Echo says hello.

Amy Awien · Feb 05, 2010, 11:43 AM // 11:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

I feel as though that would make fast casting a little too powerful. In my opinion, all that is needed is for more skills to be moved to the fast casting attribute line.

Indeed, the idea was to make Fast Casting more powerfull - it can be tuned easily, say 1% per FC point, or .5% or 2%.

How would moving skills to FC make the Mesmer primary more attractive to play or group with? Mesmers already have full access to their skills and shielding of Mesmer skills from other professions will not make primary mesmers more attractive.

Lanier · Feb 05, 2010, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Indeed, the idea was to make Fast Casting more powerfull - it can be tuned easily, say 1% per FC point, or .5% or 2%.

How would moving skills to FC make the Mesmer primary more attractive to play or group with? Mesmers already have full access to their skills and shielding of Mesmer skills from other professions will not make primary mesmers more attractive.

Yes, the idea was to make fast casting more powerful but it doesnt need all that much of a buff. Fast Casting isnt useless, its just not quite as usefull as soul reaping, energy storage, etc. Therefore, its buff doesnt need to be that powerful. Anyway, its always better to have something slightly underpowered than to have it overpowered, as overpowering advances power creep. Therefore, Anet should start small when buffing fast casting and tweak it till its a good balance. I just think that making the recharge less in addition to making the casting less would be too powerful. Maybe making fast casting reduce aftercast time would be nice.

As for moving skills to the fast casting attribute, im not saying it would make the profession more attractive. Im just saying it would make the fast casting attribute more attractive. For example, the minor bonus that warriors get from their strength attribute to their armor penetration really is very unimpressive. The reason why strength is such a good attribute is because it has such a large variety of skills (some rather good) under it.

Del · Feb 05, 2010, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Slydell

How the hell was IoP Nerfed?

Fast Casting and Echo says hello.

they can't tell the difference between a skill being toned down, and a skill being nerfed.

Amy Awien · Feb 06, 2010, 12:32 AM // 00:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

As for moving skills to the fast casting attribute, im not saying it would make the profession more attractive. Im just saying it would make the fast casting attribute more attractive.

But to what end? What would that accomplish for the Mesmer who already has access to these skills.

maxxfury · Feb 06, 2010, 02:31 AM // 02:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

As for moving skills to the fast casting attribute, im not saying it would make the profession more attractive. Im just saying it would make the fast casting attribute more attractive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

But to what end? What would that accomplish for the Mesmer who already has access to these skills.

Moving them to Fc would be a bad idea as that means you would barely have to spec in anything but FC to get the cool pve skills we all want....
but cross linking them to Fc in the same way Ele's have glowing gaze ect would enable legitimate buffs (or actually UNnerfs) to some of the mes skills without leaving them open to abuse by other classes...the reason a lot of them in isnpiration were nerfed in the first place. eg Mantra boon prots.

A win win situation for the pve messy! as it gives some more potent skills to balance the run away power of the other classes, AND could poss give them a fighting chance at a slot in teams by using skills no x/me could use.

reaper with no name · Feb 06, 2010, 06:18 AM // 06:18

Also, a nerf to mindbender would also really help, seeing as how that skill makes the mesmer's primary attribute sort of redundant...

Lanier · Feb 06, 2010, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Also, a nerf to mindbender would also really help, seeing as how that skill makes the mesmer's primary attribute sort of redundant...

the Eotn PvE skills in general are overpowered and have really hurt PvE. They all just need to be removed from the game.

Tenebrae · Feb 06, 2010, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Also, a nerf to mindbender would also really help, seeing as how that skill makes the mesmer's primary attribute sort of redundant...

Yes , its the only PvE skills that makes some atts and skills look like sht .... oh wait ......

The Drunkard · Feb 06, 2010, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Sorry, but this thread is a bit rediculous. WHEN did Anet hit mesmers with the nerfbat this year that seriously hampered them? CoP? That's an unliked skill and was abused by other professions. IoP? It was A LOT of pressure for 10energy and a decent duration.

If anything, Anet has been ignoring mesmers, giving them dartboard buffs and then nerfing them.

/notsigned

drkn · Feb 07, 2010, 07:16 PM // 19:16

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Game_updates:June_2009

if there are nerfs to only really useful skills mesmers have (VoR, quite severe CoP nerf instead of linking it with FC) while useless crap ain't touched at all, something's wrong. if other classes get tweaked here and there (rits' binding rituals skyrocketed), while one class is continuousely ignored, something's wrong. and first of all, if there's a class designed and balanced only to pvp (or pve, but i don't think that's the case), something's terribly wrong.

@the first post in the topic though: i believe - or hope - that mesmer nerfs will end now. there's hardly anything else left to nerf in pve.

@down: of course i was talking about mesmers, all in all i'm a mesmer-whiner :3

Lanier · Feb 07, 2010, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

[url]there's hardly anything else left to nerf in pve.

Im sorry but this made me lol.

Im going to assume that you meant to say "there's hardly anythine else for mesmers left to nerf in pve".

Whether or not this is the case, everyone im sure would agree that PvE is incredibly easy. There most definitely are stuff that needs nerfing in PvE. In fact, there is a lot of stuff that needs nerfing in PvE. AP, MoP, HB, all of the eotn pve skills, SY, SoS, Moebius, earthshaker, shadow form, splinter weapon, necrosis, discord, enfeebling blood. There are many, many more...

Turbo Ginsu · Feb 08, 2010, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

Sorry, but this thread is a bit rediculous. WHEN did Anet hit mesmers with the nerfbat this year that seriously hampered them? CoP? That's an unliked skill and was abused by other professions. IoP? It was A LOT of pressure for 10energy and a decent duration.

If anything, Anet has been ignoring mesmers, giving them dartboard buffs and then nerfing them.

/notsigned

Visions of Regret was given the broad spectrum nerfbat, and it was primarily used by mesmers. No real need to use it on other classes as they already all have their own skills with similar effect. Why was it nerfed? Because ppl were taking advantage of it's stackability in PvP. What does that have to do with PvE? Nothing. Nothing except the fact that aNet were too lazy to split when they did it.

That's just one example, but one that turned great PvE bars based on it, to shit. Sure, u can still get a semi-decent build out of it, but not nearly as synergized or as efficient as before. That isn't to say Mesmers were totalmessed by it, yes they still have other ways to hurt, just that most of them require you to hop backwards to the shops on one foot whistling Dixie, to trigger said damage.
Yep, that was a PvE nerf that was really needed, wasn't it? /sarcasm

Revert PvE Visions of Regret first. That was by far the biggest wet fish slap Mesmers have copped in the last year. At least with VoR chains, Mesmers could do some decent hurt.

Too many people say mesmers aren't about damage, IMO, that's just bullshit, spouted by people who don't really understand the class. Mesmers are supposed to hurt you, just for existing. That's how they have always been, and until I understood that, I was never as good with them as I was after I came to that realization.

Thoughts?

upier · Feb 08, 2010, 09:19 AM // 09:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbo Ginsu

Too many people say mesmers aren't about damage, IMO, that's just bullshit, spouted by people who don't really understand the class. Mesmers are supposed to hurt you, just for existing. That's how they have always been, and until I understood that, I was never as good with them as I was after I came to that realization.

Thoughts?

The problem is that "hurt" doesn't always equal "damage".
As the offensive aspect of Inspiration nicely demonstrates.

The mesmer can not be a damage dealing option comparable to other damage dealing options because of everything else this guy can do. It's the same reason why a smiting monk isn't as potent of a damage dealer as an assassin.

drkn · Feb 08, 2010, 02:13 PM // 14:13

Quote:

It's the same reason why a smiting monk isn't as potent of a damage dealer as an assassin.

you mean, in pve or overall?
i always thought that RoJ monks, bonder monks and all kind of hybrids were extremely powerful damagers in pve, even when they added scatter to RoJ in hard mode...
ele can be a potent healer, comparable to monks/ritualists. ele can be a potent tank, although slow, yet superior to all other tanking options but SF.
rit can be a potent healer and protector while having HUGE damage output + body blocking + tanking in the form of spirits.
ranger can be a potent runner, interrupter (doing the mesmer's role) AND damager using only one rit skill (barrage in pve is still useful even without splinter).

sorry, but are we playing the same game?

upier · Feb 08, 2010, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

you mean, in pve or overall?
i always thought that RoJ monks, bonder monks and all kind of hybrids were extremely powerful damagers in pve, even when they added scatter to RoJ in hard mode...
ele can be a potent healer, comparable to monks/ritualists. ele can be a potent tank, although slow, yet superior to all other tanking options but SF.
rit can be a potent healer and protector while having HUGE damage output + body blocking + tanking in the form of spirits.
ranger can be a potent runner, interrupter (doing the mesmer's role) AND damager using only one rit skill (barrage in pve is still useful even without splinter).

sorry, but are we playing the same game?

And the mesmer:
1. excels at physical and caster control
2. excels at e-denial
3. can remove hexes and enchantments
4. has access to superb e-management options
5. has access to some decent supportive damage dealing options.
6. has access to some decent defensive options.
And that's all before looking into a secondary. Or PvE-only skills.

The simple fact that those things suck in PvE doesn't change the fact that the guys can do them.

(And no, RoJ monks aren't potent damage dealers. At least not on the level of a buffed-up physical.)

drkn · Feb 08, 2010, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

3. can remove hexes and enchantments

i agree with the hex control - if you dedicate your mesmer to be a hex-remover, your party is safe from them. wait, taking anything more than remove hex is an overkill?...

Quote:

4. has access to superb e-management options

from which maybe three or four skills are used in builds across the game, while other 20 are just a piece of junk.

Quote:

5. has access to some decent supportive damage dealing options.

the only decent options involve punishment - there's no decent direct damage available to mesmer at the moment.
so even in pvp, you rather disable someone than damage him - empathy on an assassin makes him stop attacking, not deal damage to him. unless he's an idiot...

Quote:

6. has access to some decent defensive options.

the only defensive options are mantras and i can hardly call them decent.

the damage output is not the specific case here. if mantras were really great in defense and provided an additional buff or had a party-wide secondary effect, that would be fine. if e-denial gave anything in pve, that would be fine. if there was a way to play an effective interrupter in HM (without a bot), that would be fine.
seriously, any useful role in pve, please! it doesn't need to be damage. it can be support through mantras, damage mitigation via interrupt, making mobs completely useless and waiting for someone else to smoke them.

the real problem is that mesmers have no comparably effective and useful role in pve now.
if you want some caster control and interrupt, it's much better to take BHA ranger with two interrupts and a lot of bow damage or other according skills. if you want protection, even for yourself, you have to use skills from your secondary (and that would be fine if mesmers could do anything else, like sins have high targeted dps, etc). mesmers have one selfheal, that is quite useful early in the game, but becomes redundant as later you have to use dedicated monk heroes/henchmen/players.
there's no damage, no prot, no heal, no party buff, no damage mitigation available for us (besides shutting down melee, but then skills like ineptitude or clumsiness have long recharges/high cost/no aoe effect/etc). even the so-called indirect damage via health degen is crappy - we have about ten or more degeneration skills, but they have damn high cost, high recharge, short duration - and even when you build something around lyssa's aura, your degen abilities are capped at -10, still being inferior to any form of direct damage. and remember it's still a hex - it can easily be stripped by hm mobs, it expires twice as fast on bosses, it can be interrupted, and if cast in a wrong second, it can easily be wasted (see ineptitude).

and that's the problem - suggestions are made in giving us higher damage, as damage is what pve is built up around and would let us get into any pug, but it's not the essence.

Quote:

(And no, RoJ monks aren't potent damage dealers. At least not on the level of a buffed-up physical.)

last time i checked it was easy to vq majesty's rest on rojway, even without additional runes from being a primairy monk; it was possible (not easy, but still) to be effective with roj in foundry; roj was one of the most desired nukes in organised party runs (urgoz, deep, whatever) that don't include permasins (or just one for tanking and balling). i agree that mopway is stronger, but that's totally another issue and blame mop being overpowered in that case. even then, you still require someone to cast it.

Desert Rose · Feb 08, 2010, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

the real problem is that mesmers have no comparably effective and useful role in pve now.

The main problem is that PvE doesn't require support; all you need is as much damage as possible and enough protection/healing to avoid being killed first.
Every support class either has access to one or more overpowered skills/builds (ER, spirits) or is ineffective (ranger, mesmer).

upier has already provided a few suggestions how mesmers (and rangers) could be more useful in PvE without changing one skill on page 1.

upier · Feb 08, 2010, 03:48 PM // 15:48

As I said, the problem is that you have all that rolled into ONE guy.
It's the same reason why Inspiration is so problematic - you have superb e-management options and then you have stuff like Signet Of Humility or Spirit Shackles in the same line! Or when you have skills like Drain Enchantment which heals the caster, removes the enchantment AND gives the caster energy!

You want to make the mesmer useful in PvE with skill changes?
Nerf his options into the ground and turn him into a simple shadow nuker.
Otherwise don't expect the guy to be this insanely versatile caster and then to excel at everything he does.

As I have said in my first post in this thread - the best way to change the mesmer is to change the E in PvE. Otherwise all you can do is remove that which makes the guy special.